Help! - Steinway Square Piano

[Ricardo]

Hello Guys:

I was advised in other group to direct my post for further input.

I live in Toronto, Canada and I am in the process of buying a square
grand piano. If the price is fair! Yes...I now full well the pros and
cons of these old pianos, but I still want one!

The local dealer wants $10,000 for the piano before repairs. The piano
is ok as is, though out of tune as it has not been played in over 21
years. It has been restrung sometime in the 50's and has modern tuning
pins. The pins are still tight and can "hold" a tuning.

The piano is a Steinway Square circa 1867. It has a rosewood cabinet
with the curvy legs. This style seems to be the more common version
that I have seen over the years in auction books and on ebay. My
problem is I have found one local, but he want's $15,000 for it and its
not being rebuilt, restrung or refinished?

The piano will need another $5,000 spent on regulating the action and
restoring the cabinet finish. The breadown as follows:

$10,000 - Piano as found
$2,500 - Action regulation (does not include replacement of parts, none
are curently needed)
$2,500 - Cabinet cosmetics (minor work and touch ups where needed)

Total Cost: $15,000 plus taxes


He will include delivery and a clawfoot stool with the purchase as well
as the tuning following delivery after it has settled after 3 weeks.

Is $15,000 fair for this kind of piano? I had budgeted 10,000 with
work but I wasn't expecting to pay more than $4,500 for the piano
before repairs.

Please Help? I'm am being taken for a ride?

Thanks,

Ricardo Aleixo

[ragtimebill]

Nope, no way is ANY square grand worth that kind of money!

-Bill Rowland
Broken Arrow, OK

Post by Ricardo
I was advised in other group to direct my post for further input.
I live in Toronto, Canada and I am in the process of buying a square
grand piano. If the price is fair! Yes...I now full well the pros and
cons of these old pianos, but I still want one!
The local dealer wants $10,000 for the piano before repairs. The piano
is ok as is, though out of tune as it has not been played in over 21
years. It has been restrung sometime in the 50's and has modern tuning
pins. The pins are still tight and can "hold" a tuning.
The piano is a Steinway Square circa 1867. It has a rosewood cabinet
with the curvy legs. This style seems to be the more common version
that I have seen over the years in auction books and on ebay. My
problem is I have found one local, but he want's $15,000 for it and its
not being rebuilt, restrung or refinished?
The piano will need another $5,000 spent on regulating the action and
$10,000 - Piano as found
$2,500 - Action regulation (does not include replacement of parts, none
are curently needed)
$2,500 - Cabinet cosmetics (minor work and touch ups where needed)
Total Cost: $15,000 plus taxes
He will include delivery and a clawfoot stool with the purchase as well
as the tuning following delivery after it has settled after 3 weeks.
Is $15,000 fair for this kind of piano? I had budgeted 10,000 with
work but I wasn't expecting to pay more than $4,500 for the piano
before repairs.
Please Help? I'm am being taken for a ride?
Thanks,
Ricardo Aleixo

[tenkiller]

Don't listen to him. Antique Square pianos are wonderful instruments
for the home. They were popular for over 100 years. They fell out of
favor to the Uprights (which took up less room) in the late 1800s. They
are excellent instruments made with much better woods and other
materials. They sound slightly different than modern instruments. But
most modern instruments are not as lively sounding, Steinway included.
Many tuners are intimidated by them and declare them "unfit as a musical
instrument". Musicians feel differently. They blend well with other
instruments and voices. They are not quiet as powerful as a Concert
Grand of any age but comperable to a baby grand. Most people don't want
or need that much power in their homes.

Do your research. There are many sites on the internet extolling the
virtues of the Square Piano.

I have an 1869 Bacon and Karr with a rosewood case and elephant ivory
keys. I have access to other modern instruments, Steinways etc but this
one is my favorite. I do like playing on Broadwoods, Erards, Mason and
Hamlins and Antique Steinways. The Bacon and Karr I bought for $500. in
the 1980s and had it fully restored for $7000. retaining all origional
parts possible. This means all felt, leather and strings were replaced.
No wood had to be. I did have a brand new pinblock installed too. I
have had it appraised by several reputable appraisal firms and was
astounded by how high their appraisals were. I would not trade it for
any amount of money.

If you really want the Steinway, then go for it. I will tell you that
there are some problems with antique pianos. Mainly because there are
no plastic parts and wood changes with the weather. You might have a
sluggish key once in a while but if you keep the temp and humidity about
the same, the problems will be minimal. I wasn't sorry and I don't think
that you will either.

tenkiller

[ragtimebill]

If you are a serious musician, I can guarantee that you will not be
satisfied with a square grand. If what you are wanting is furniture or
a conversation piece, then, go ahead with my blessings, and good luck.

-Bill Rowland, piano technician
Broken Arrow, OK

Post by tenkiller
Don't listen to him. Antique Square pianos are wonderful instruments
for the home. They were popular for over 100 years. They fell out of
favor to the Uprights (which took up less room) in the late 1800s. They
are excellent instruments made with much better woods and other
materials. They sound slightly different than modern instruments. But
most modern instruments are not as lively sounding, Steinway included.
Many tuners are intimidated by them and declare them "unfit as a musical
instrument". Musicians feel differently. They blend well with other
instruments and voices. They are not quiet as powerful as a Concert
Grand of any age but comperable to a baby grand. Most people don't want
or need that much power in their homes.
Do your research. There are many sites on the internet extolling the
virtues of the Square Piano.
I have an 1869 Bacon and Karr with a rosewood case and elephant ivory
keys. I have access to other modern instruments, Steinways etc but this
one is my favorite. I do like playing on Broadwoods, Erards, Mason and
Hamlins and Antique Steinways. The Bacon and Karr I bought for $500. in
the 1980s and had it fully restored for $7000. retaining all origional
parts possible. This means all felt, leather and strings were replaced.
No wood had to be. I did have a brand new pinblock installed too. I
have had it appraised by several reputable appraisal firms and was
astounded by how high their appraisals were. I would not trade it for
any amount of money.
If you really want the Steinway, then go for it. I will tell you that
there are some problems with antique pianos. Mainly because there are
no plastic parts and wood changes with the weather. You might have a
sluggish key once in a while but if you keep the temp and humidity about
the same, the problems will be minimal. I wasn't sorry and I don't think
that you will either.
tenkiller

[tenkiller]

I am a serious musician.
Everyone loves my piano.

What problems do you have with a square piano? Yes, I understand that,
according to my tuner, Technicians don't like them because with most,
the tuning pins are in the back and difficult to get to. Mathuscek (sp?)
are about the only one I know of with pins in the front. I know that
it is difficult to keep up with which string is what. The strings in my
piano are all labeled.
So, why should a serious musician not like a square piano?

[Steven Lewis]

I've been a tuner/tech for 37 years and I've yet to see a square grand that
I would even come close to wanting to play (let alone tune) I'm sure there
is that rare find that would prove me wrong, but it would be anecdotal. For
starters, square grands do not have a repetition lever in the action that
greatly improves the grand piano action. (It is also not in an upright
piano, making the grand much superior). The square grands built in the
latter 19th century were the cheap piano of the day (as opposed to the more
expensive grand piano), the upright piano eventually took on those honors.
Sure, there are no plastic parts that are available, but there are no wooden
parts available either. All parts will have to be hand made. The sound of
the piano is different from today's piano mainly because the tension is so
much lower that today's pianos, giving it a more muted sound. However, after
saying all this, they sure were beautiful pieces of furniture.
steve

Post by tenkiller
I am a serious musician.
Everyone loves my piano.
What problems do you have with a square piano? Yes, I understand that,
according to my tuner, Technicians don't like them because with most,
the tuning pins are in the back and difficult to get to. Mathuscek (sp?)
are about the only one I know of with pins in the front. I know that
it is difficult to keep up with which string is what. The strings in my
piano are all labeled.
So, why should a serious musician not like a square piano?

[c***@flapper.com]

Nobody seems to have mentioned the BIG problem with square grands.
I've tuned them for almost 33 years and have to say that the
difference in the TOUCH (determined by the LEVERAGE of the key)
between the bottom note, the physical key maybe six inches long, and
the top note, the key maybe 30 inches long IS DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT.

The response to such things as repeats at various places along the
keyboard will vary HUGELY and be a difficulty for any serious player.

My two cents worth.

Checker



On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 16:37:55 -0500, "Steven Lewis"

Post by Steven Lewis
I've been a tuner/tech for 37 years and I've yet to see a square grand that
I would even come close to wanting to play (let alone tune) I'm sure there
is that rare find that would prove me wrong, but it would be anecdotal. For
starters, square grands do not have a repetition lever in the action that
greatly improves the grand piano action. (It is also not in an upright
piano, making the grand much superior). The square grands built in the
latter 19th century were the cheap piano of the day (as opposed to the more
expensive grand piano), the upright piano eventually took on those honors.
Sure, there are no plastic parts that are available, but there are no wooden
parts available either. All parts will have to be hand made. The sound of
the piano is different from today's piano mainly because the tension is so
much lower that today's pianos, giving it a more muted sound. However, after
saying all this, they sure were beautiful pieces of furniture.
steve

Post by tenkiller
I am a serious musician.
Everyone loves my piano.
What problems do you have with a square piano? Yes, I understand that,
according to my tuner, Technicians don't like them because with most,
the tuning pins are in the back and difficult to get to. Mathuscek (sp?)
are about the only one I know of with pins in the front. I know that
it is difficult to keep up with which string is what. The strings in my
piano are all labeled.
So, why should a serious musician not like a square piano?

[g***@gmail.com]

Do not listen to them a square grand piano is a good investment and is worth the money when it's fully restored it could be worth $20,000-$60,000 I would go ahead and get it if I were you go with all the repairs needed for it. These people saying square grand pianos are worth it they're all liars they don't know what they're talking about I done the research I have a Steinway square gram from 1870 I'm a piano technician when I am in the same position as you and I am getting mine fixed and I know it will be profitable I have taken a course I am well educated in business don't listen to the other peope. Why buy a brand-new Steinway if you could buy a piece of American history. I don't get people today I really don't.